At what point did Vice hit its stride?


Guest myonlyvice

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Guest myonlyvice

I've been rewatching season one, in order, and I've been struck by how different the first episodes feel compared to the rest of the show. The Rodriguez episodes feel like they're barely in the same ballpark compared to what would follow. The advent of Castillo was pivotal in creating the feel or vibe that would define the show but even his first episodes feel different. It seems to me that the show began to take on its mature form somewhere between "Calderone's Return" and "The Great McCarthy". After rewatching "McCarthy" for the 100th time it dawned on me that it could fit rather well in season two, style and story wise. I don't know if they changed the film, the lighting, or some other facet of production but the colors and the visuals by the time of "McCarthy" generally appear more modern, like what you see from season two onward. The colors of the "Rodriguez" episodes at times seem drab by comparison, like a 70's cop show. For me, "McCarthy" is where the show finally discovered its definitive look. The trajectory was not a straight line though. There are moments (arguably entire episodes) in post-"McCarthy" season one where the show peeks back at its infancy but thankfully these are not so numerous. After this most recent rewatching it occurred to me that we may have been very lucky that Vice was picked up as a show at all since it really didn't offer much that was new or interesting in those early episodes. I think we owe it all to the pilot episode. While still antiquated at times in its feel, it did just enough to pique people's interest and the right individuals saw great potential because the epiodes immediately following the pilot took a step back in my opinion. If the producers had not taken a progressive attitude when they did the show would have failed. Can you imagine the show sticking with the style of the Rodriguez episodes throughout its run? It never would have made it. I know I wouldn't be a fan anyway. So when do the rest of you think that Vice hit its stride?

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Yeh I agree, Even though I do like Heart of darkness and bits of cool running, the show picks up around calderone returns 1 & 2. I think in the early episodes, they had to wrap up the caroline/billy storyline quickly so they can just focus on drug deals and stuff.But then One Eyed Jack, No Exit & The Great Mccarthy come around and its like the perfect trilogy. I could happily live with just those 3 episodes. Everything is ramped up, The music, the action, Edward olmos.Like you noted the season goes down a little with stuff like Glades, Give A little take a little & little Prince.But then bounces back with milk run & the show's hit the ground running by this point.

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The Vice style and storylines were there from the start, but it definitely took a few eps to truly gel (like any good series, really). Castillo's entrance in "One Eyed Jack" is the natural turning point, and by "Milk Run" (one of the definitive eps, IMO), MV had more or less found it's groove. Honestly, I'd say season one from '85 onwards ("Milk Run" to the end of the season) is "matured Vice" and where the show really hit it's stride.Though I do see & agree with the point of S1 "infancy" showing up in later parts of that first season. Watching "Made For Each Other" (an episode I really like, BTW) on Centric the other day, the look and style of the episode would fit comfortably in S2 (Bonzo Barry's, Noogie's wedding), but parts of the plotline are awkward and more suited to the first few episodes of S1. Some of the heavily comedic stuff just doesn't fit at all ("I hate those wooden trucks! I spit on those wooden trucks!", for example, is pretty cringeworthy).Moments like that aside, though, I'd say the 2nd half of season one up through all of season two is MV's stride. There's a few dud episodes and/or some weak writing, more so in S2, but the run is, I think, overwhelmingly good.

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I just wanna say that the thing i hate about "made for each other" is it had one of the coolest intros in the entire series and it was was wasted on a comedy ep.I wanted to see a serious counterfeiting story, kinda like "Live and die in L.A"(which is a great movie btw, even though friedkin kind of ripped off mann).

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I think Vice hit it's stride right away. Season one was superb up to The great McCarthy. The only weak spot there was Cool Runnin

I wanted to see a serious counterfeiting story, kinda like "Live and die in L.A"(which is a great movie btw, even though friedkin kind of ripped off mann).[/quoteI agree. It is a great movie. One of my favourites. It is very much like Mann's work though. The scene where Dafoe is printing money is very similar in execution to the opening safe cracking scene of Thief.
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I just wanna say that the thing i hate about "made for each other" is it had one of the coolest intros in the entire series and it was was wasted on a comedy ep.I wanted to see a serious counterfeiting story' date=' kinda like "Live and die in L.A"(which is a great movie btw, even though friedkin kind of ripped off mann).[/quote']Not wasted at all :D
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I just wanna say that the thing i hate about "made for each other" is it had one of the coolest intros in the entire series and it was was wasted on a comedy ep.
I love that intro' date=' and "Money (That's What I Want)" fits [i']perfectly. Most of the ep I really don't mind so much. It's probably the lightest episode of the entire series, so it stands out because of that, but I like that Switek and Zito's friendship is explored, especially since they were more or less pegged as bumblers at the start of the series ("Bluto and Lee Harvey Oswald", Zito's screwing up in "Cool Runnin'"). So, in that respect, it moved the series forward a bit. And even some of the comedic moments I don't mind (this is probably the funniest I've ever found Noogie, and I like the friendship he and Izzy strike up). Plus, like I mentioned before, the overall look and style is really in the same vein as S2.It's just some of the more unrealistic, goofy aspects that bring the ep down a bit for me. The cement truck incident, and the whole "Wooden trucks" thing I mentioned before is just weird, especially since it's coming from a bad guy that is otherwise fairly all-business. In those regards, the ep recalls some of the early S1 episodes. So, oddly enough, "Made For Each other" features heavy elements from both the start of the series and from where the series was going, perhaps more so than any other episode of this era of MV.Also, we get some Elvis in the soundtrack, always a positive for me.
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perfectly. Most of the ep I really don't mind so much. It's probably the lightest episode of the entire series, so it stands out because of that, but I like that Switek and Zito's friendship is explored, especially since they were more or less pegged as bumblers at the start of the series ("Bluto and Lee Harvey Oswald", Zito's screwing up in "Cool Runnin'"). So, in that respect, it moved the series forward a bit. And even some of the comedic moments I don't mind (this is probably the funniest I've ever found Noogie, and I like the friendship he and Izzy strike up). Plus, like I mentioned before, the overall look and style is really in the same vein as S2.It's just some of the more unrealistic, goofy aspects that bring the ep down a bit for me. The cement truck incident, and the whole "Wooden trucks" thing I mentioned before is just weird, especially since it's coming from a bad guy that is otherwise fairly all-business. In those regards, the ep recalls some of the early S1 episodes. So, oddly enough, "Made For Each other" features heavy elements from both the start of the series and from where the series was going, perhaps more so than any other episode of this era of MV.Also, we get some Elvis in the soundtrack, always a positive for me.

Great episode :D
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The Vice style and storylines were there from the start' date=' but it definitely took a few eps to truly gel (like any good series, really). Castillo's entrance in "One Eyed Jack" is the natural turning point, and by "Milk Run" (one of the definitive eps, IMO), MV had more or less found it's groove. Honestly, I'd say season one from '85 onwards ("Milk Run" to the end of the season) is "matured Vice" and where the show really hit it's stride.[/quote']I would have to agree with this assessment. For me, it took all the elements to be in place before the show really took off. If I had to pick an episode, "Smuggler's Blues" would be the point of the series that the show really hit it's stride.
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his first episodes feel different. It seems to me that the show began to take on its mature form somewhere between "Calderone's Return" and "The Great McCarthy". After rewatching "McCarthy" for the 100th time it dawned on me that it could fit rather well in season two, style and story wise. I don't know if they changed the film, the lighting, or some other facet of production but the colors and the visuals by the time of "McCarthy" generally appear more modern, like what you see from season two onward. The colors of the "Rodriguez" episodes at times seem drab by comparison, like a 70's cop show. For me, "McCarthy" is where the show finally discovered its definitive look. The trajectory was not a straight line though. There are moments (arguably entire episodes) in post-"McCarthy" season one where the show peeks back at its infancy but thankfully these are not so numerous. After this most recent rewatching it occurred to me that we may have been very lucky that Vice was picked up as a show at all since it really didn't offer much that was new or interesting in those early episodes. I think we owe it all to the pilot episode. While still antiquated at times in its feel, it did just enough to pique people's interest and the right individuals saw great potential because the epiodes immediately following the pilot took a step back in my opinion. If the producers had not taken a progressive attitude when they did the show would have failed. Can you imagine the show sticking with the style of the Rodriguez episodes throughout its run? It never would have made it. I know I wouldn't be a fan anyway. So when do the rest of you think that Vice hit its stride?

Very good topic.I haven't watched season 1 in prob 7 years so i cant really comment on when it hit it's stride but on your points of Castillo's first episode him feeling different to you in it-that's a feeling i have experienced with a few shows-when re watching them.The characters nuances may not be there that you are familiar with or they just look different.When you say you think it's lucky vice was picked up because the early eps didn't provide much new or interesting-and then you rightly say you think it was because of the pilot-of course it was-thats what gets any show greenlit-i still think it offered something different to the shows that were on around the same time but when i watch certain episodes through all the series i have thought to myself if i wasn't a huge fan i can see why people lost interest or felt it wasn't worth staying in on a friday night to watch the next episode-so i see your point there.Now when you say you wouldn't have been a fan if it had stuck with rodriguez vibe-isn't that because you have became accustomed to Castillo and the diff direction the show went-better episodes you have seen etc?You have been spoiled my friend lol-even if Castillo hadn't joined i think i would have still watched it-wouldn't have liked it as much but it still had an interesting setting and 2 main characters i liked-i would have gave it a shot at least.(thinkin when it hit it's stride-the bruce willis episode for me is a stand out-from the first time i watched it in sequence-that was six or 7 eps in if i remember-just the way tubbs responds to getting frisked in the mens room by instantly doing it back to bruce and the phil collins music as they are boarding the boat at end-slow mo uzi fire and stuff?-VINTAGE!)I will start season 1 this summer-you have inspired me!
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Guest myonlyvice

Very good topic.I haven't watched season 1 in prob 7 years so i cant really comment on when it hit it's stride but on your points of Castillo's first episode him feeling different to you in it-that's a feeling i have experienced with a few shows-when re watching them.The characters nuances may not be there that you are familiar with or they just look different.When you say you think it's lucky vice was picked up because the early eps didn't provide much new or interesting-and then you rightly say you think it was because of the pilot-of course it was-thats what gets any show greenlit-i still think it offered something different to the shows that were on around the same time but when i watch certain episodes through all the series i have thought to myself if i wasn't a huge fan i can see why people lost interest or felt it wasn't worth staying in on a friday night to watch the next episode-so i see your point there.Now when you say you wouldn't have been a fan if it had stuck with rodriguez vibe-isn't that because you have became accustomed to Castillo and the diff direction the show went-better episodes you have seen etc?You have been spoiled my friend lol-even if Castillo hadn't joined i think i would have still watched it-wouldn't have liked it as much but it still had an interesting setting and 2 main characters i liked-i would have gave it a shot at least.(thinkin when it hit it's stride-the bruce willis episode for me is a stand out-from the first time i watched it in sequence-that was six or 7 eps in if i remember-just the way tubbs responds to getting frisked in the mens room by instantly doing it back to bruce and the phil collins music as they are boarding the boat at end-slow mo uzi fire and stuff?-VINTAGE!)I will start season 1 this summer-you have inspired me!

Great thoughts, pal. Maybe I should clarify what I meant by my comments regarding the pilot and the episodes immediately after it. In my view, the post-pilot Rodriguez episodes were not as good as the pilot, primarily because they showed less innovation overall. ("Hit List" was by far the best Rodriguez episode and I'm not saying it just because this is where he gets iced. :)) The show had briefly slipped into an atavistic torpor, causing it to resemble more the police shows of the 70's. Because of this, it made me think that excitement about the show easily could have waned leading to a mid-season cancellation. I'm not certain how things worked back then as far as maintaining ratings but today it seems studio execs have little compunction when it comes to putting under-performing programs to the sword, or at least truncating a season of 22 episodes down to 12-13. Maybe the studio suits were more patient in '84. I guess if we could find the ratings for all the Rodriguez episodes it would put this particular topic to rest. Can anybody provide? As far as Castillo's importance to the series I feel it cannot be overstated. He is just as essential to the Vice vibe as C&T. In the world of police lieutenants Rodriguez was a dinosaur. He was a drag. I'm absolutely certain in a parallel universe where Vice kept Lou Rodriguez as lieutenant that the show did not enjoy the same popularity as the one we were blessed with.
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I'm not certain how things worked back then as far as maintaining ratings but today it seems studio execs have little compunction when it comes to putting under-performing programs to the sword' date=' or at least truncating a season of 22 episodes down to 12-13. Maybe the studio suits were more patient in '84. [/quote']They were definitely more patient then. Cheers whole first season was rated poorly and they brought it back! You probably know the rest. It went out strong with over ten seasons and it still had far better ratings than its first season. There would have been no Cheers today. I just read that one new series this fall was cancelled after just two episodes! That's got to be some kind of record.I'm with you. It would be very interesting to compare the ratings from the Rodriguez episodes to the rest of season one.
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I'm with you. It would be very interesting to compare the ratings from the Rodriguez episodes to the rest of season one.

I've heard different stories about this: 1) The pilot featured strong ratings, but then viewership dipped, to the point that NBC was considering cancellation, until the show exploded in summer reruns, and 2) The show was an instant hit, and gathered more and more viewers until it was a certified phenomenon in time for the second season.I don't know if either or neither of those stories are true, so don't quote me, but I do know the 2nd season was the highest rated of the entire series. According to Wikipdia, season one ranked #31, so...?
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As far as Castillo's importance to the series I feel it cannot be overstated. He is just as essential to the Vice vibe as C&T

.Couldn't agree more myonlyvice!Marty is prob my favourite character-his on screen presence was immense!When i watched an ep for the first time whether it was a average or poor episode in my opinion i always perked up when he appeared
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  • 1 year later...

Excellent thread. For me, I watched the Pilot when it originally aired and was impressed and hooked right away so I would have to say it was tops right away. However I do agree with those that say Castillo was a big improvement, Rodriguez was more suited for a New York Vice in my opinion. He was for me a glaring mistake in casting at the start so I agree that his exit got the show cruising. The first two seasons are my loves but as I spend more time location hunting the later episodes I have come to appreciate them more and my own perspectives have changed.

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Certainly by "Milk Run " and " Golden Triangle" . 

The Pilot , Heart of Darkness , Cool Runnin and the Calderone episodes as well as Three Eyed Turtle were fantastic - but then although good the quality dipped a little with Great McCarthy , Glades and Little Prince. :radio:

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  • 2 months later...

The early episodes are not as rewatchable for me. You have to watch them in continuity whereas you can see the rest of the series in any order.

 

No exit is probably the first 10/10 episode that lives up to the Pilot.

Edited by thedeparted94
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IMO Vice hit it's stride in season 2 with episodes like Little Miss Dangerous, Out Where the Busses Don't Run, and Phil the Shill. Not that the following seasons didn't produce some good eps.  You often hear some people say that Vice started to go downhill after the first two seasons.  I've never held that opinion because some of the worst episodes in later seasons are better than a lot of c____ on TV these days.

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I've been rewatching season one, in order, and I've been struck by how different the first episodes feel compared to the rest of the show. The Rodriguez episodes feel like they're barely in the same ballpark compared to what would follow. The advent of Castillo was pivotal in creating the feel or vibe that would define the show 

So when do the rest of you think that Vice hit its stride?

 

I agree that Castillo really gave the show a new edge from the pilot.

I think as it was already ground breaking television that season one is grand as is two. Season three is about the last of the great story lines and outside shots and scenes etc as I found season four and five really started to wind down.

I'm not saying they were bad or anything but they did not have the pizzazz of say Even, or Milk Run, Heart of Darkness etc  and the Burnett trilogy as also good!

 

There were moments of greatness as well as mediocrity in all seasons, but like I said I enjoyed the first three as I think it had a strong stride during that time period.

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I think it did  until season three and then things changed a bit but in some ways we started to know more about the character who Sonny Crockett/Burnett specially when the amnesia storyline came alive got to love that for sure and to see how close Rico and Sonny feel towards each other as partner and friends and we find  in other episodes later on towards the finale

 

A side note I miss this show and people 

Edited by alleycat
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  • 2 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...

For me I was in love ever since I saw the In The Air Tonight scene, classic at its best, just how can you have such great episodes, then in Season 4 the show really changes and has some bad episodes? Apart from the beginning of the Burnett saga and Child's play.

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